Showing posts with label plumbing. Show all posts
Showing posts with label plumbing. Show all posts

Saturday, 8 October 2022

Questionable fitting



 Was messing about with something in the cockpit locker and a misstep caused this fitting to fail.   This fitting provides the barbed end for the flexible hose connection to the raw water seacock.  It didn’t take much pressure to snap it off, and I do wonder about the material’s strength.     The only locally available replacement was even less substantial, with a very short hose barb.   


I installed it anyway as a temporary measure, and ordered a fitting from the local marine store.  I also purchased a fitting from a chandlery in La Rochelle France.  (A timely visit!)


Much more substantial!


Saturday, 29 August 2020

Deck fills and Adaptors

 

2019 Update


So, I replaced the pump put deck fill with a standard stainless steel unit and it turns out that the fitting has the SAME THREAD, which I now believe to be 1.25" NPS  (as in....  national pipe STRAIGHT)  The forespar part consists of a male to male 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" NPS reducer and a 1 1/2" female NPS to NPT adaptor.    Seems so simple now...  

See more recent  posts on replacing these deck fittings.


Original 2017 Blog post


It appears I am one of the fortunate few who has the threaded adaptor that actually fits the original 33-2 deck fill.   Finding a replacement is nearly impossible, apparently.   I finally got around to taking this thing to two hose and fitting supply companies in Toronto, and neither could identify it.   One tried hard and told me the thread diameter is 38.5 mm, 12 tpi, (yes, mixed the units) not tapered, and is not:
BSPP
MPSM
UNF

WTF?




The deck fills themselves look an awful lot like the forespar MF-830 series.

UPDATE

OK, it looks like the 33-2 deck fills were made by a New Zealand-based company called RC marine, which was sold (along with Ronstan) to a corporation called Fortuna, which went bust mid 90's.  







The RC product line (and maybe others) was subsequently bought by Forespar in California, who continues to produce the same deck fills under the Forespar brand.  They are not widely distributed, and are difficult to find, and the connection to RC, surprisingly, is not readily findable on the internet.   In any case, the current Forespar Deck fills and associated spares are the compatible with our OEM RC deckfills.   (thanks Randy)



I have ordered a pump out adaptor.

Stay tuned.


UPDATE


May 6 2017

Got it.   Behold the elusive forespar MF-830, no doubt the prefix relates to its availability.



The pic is a bit dark...   As delivered the Forespar MF-830 adaptor consists of two pieces, screwed together.  It requires the addition of a cam lock hose connector to connect at the pump out.

What you get is a male to male adaptor, the small end of which (top thread in the photos) engages engages the deck fitting.  The large end (You can see a few threads)  engages  the second piece, which is a 1.5" female to female coupling.   

I wondered why the coupling was included - could the 1.5" male thread not fit a female cam lock hose connector?  Why three parts when two will do, as with my metal fitting in the photo above?

The 1.5" thread on both the coupling and the adaptor is not a standard north american tapered thread. (NPT style)   A cam lock hose fitting with a north american make thread will only fit if the tapered NPT male is threaded into the untapered female.  (like the metal example) The untapered male thread will not fit into NPT female thread. 

Anyway, it fits, it works, its available.   The readily available make plastic cam lock fittings thread perfectly into the coupling.  (the end facing down)  Nice thing is it is quite light.  I will attach a float, and the metal one will become a spare.

Fitting which fits.

Fitting which fits not.


Saturday, 27 July 2019

Deck fill core removal and reinforcement.

Dealing with Deck fills.

Water ingress over time will penetrate a cored laminate, and eventually cause rot, delamination and failure.   It is generally  recommended that the core be removed in these areas and replaced with solid glass, leaving the core itself un-penetrated by fasteners or fittings.   Failing that, holes or exposed core should at least be well sealed with epoxy to prevent water ingress.   Windstar, as with many older production yachts, had simply had the deck fittings installed directly through the cored area of the deck, with no precautions taken.

On Windstar, the fresh water deck fill and pump out fittings, though installed through balsa-cored areas of the deck, and had been well bedded with butyl tape.   After over 30 years, the fittings remained watertight and the deck core dry and sound.   While I was doing work that exposed this part of the deck,  I took the opportunity to take the precautions I describe above.


First project, the fresh water fill.

Below is an image of the deck fill penetration, which is through both the deck and liner.   This is a real pain as it is necessary to remove the liner to inspect or work on the underside of the deck.   Since I had elected to remove the liner to strengthen the deck to bulkhead joint anyway, it made sense to deal with the deck fill as well.  See that project here.  

After removing the liner, it was necessary to remove the core in a radius around the deck fill opening.  This was done with an allen key chucked in a drill, working from above.   Crude but very effective, it removes the core from approximately 1” around the existing hole.     The pics should tell the story, but essentially the shaft of the key registers against the existing hole and the spinning key removes the core.  Hold the drill with both hands!   

To replace the balsa, I made a circular plug the same thickness as the core.  This consists of 3 discs of scrap laminate, stacked and epoxied together.  A bimetal holesaw chucked in a drill press was used the cut the discs, and the material was from scrap panels cut from Windstar when installing hatches.

 That puck was fitted into the prepared area, well bedded in glass-filled epoxy putty, and the entire area was then glassed over.  The work is done wet-on-wet (really, wet-on-B-stage) to ensure the best possible integrity.   The holes were then bored for the new deck fitting from above.

And the fitting installed, (well-bedded with butyl tape of course) into a  a solid fibreglass section of the deck.   




Second project, different approach, the pump-out fitting.

For most situations, this is probably a better method of dealing with this task than I describe in the first section of this page. 
As before, the balsa core was removed using a cordless drill and allen key.   In this case the Allen key was ground to the length required to remove only enough core to comfortably clear the screws of the replacement deck fill.  The interior skin on the C&C is thick enough that it remained intact, which is a great help.

Using two hole saws and interior fibreglass retained from this project to make an interior  reinforcing/backing  washer for the fitting.


 



The gap created between the deck and inner skin was filled with epoxy/glass putty.  The deck fill,  which was wrapped with polyester packing tape and heavily waxed, with its backing plate, was then inserted from below.  the remaining space and the screw holes were then filled with more glass/epoxy putty, and smoothed with a gloved finger.


The deck was then wiped down with an acetone-soaked rag.  Once the epoxy cured, the fitting was pressed out.   The opening was sanded to soften its edges and remove any "flash", and the fitting was reinstalled from above and the new screw holes drilled.  The fit is quite precise, as you might imagine.   


Because the previous holes were countersunk, they were not hidden by the new, smaller fitting.  I elected to make a UHMW (starboard) pad to hide these.   I used the same concentric holesaw technique above, and radiused the edges using a router table.

And the fitting and its screws were all bedded with butyl.






Diesel fill will be replaced at some point.


Sunday, 11 June 2017

How to drain the ice box?

Here is a photo of Windstar's ice box drain pump.  It is a Beckson SiphonMate hand pump, mounted in a bracket below  counter.   The inlet is connected to the ice box drain, the outlet to a length of hose which is not connected to anything, but  is long enough to reach the sink.




When Windstar showed up, the self priming SiphonMate was not.  Replacing it with a new one solved the problem.   It is a simple, effective approach, however I would prefer a drain that was direct plumbed into an overboard drain rather than relying on a coiled length of hose.   Pretty low on the list of issues, and mainly,  I post this for those who would like to see the stock installation of the SiphonMate.

A recent discussion on the C&C mailing list was started by an owner with a blocked ice box drain hose, which left me puzzled.  Drain where?  The bilge?  Nasty.  Turns out there were others with the same plumbing, (a prior owners' fix?) and others who had addressed this in different ways.

Below is Lee's solution, repurposing a seawater pump and faucet.   I expect the seawater pump was a dealer option.   (Windstar has only one footpump, from the freshwater tank.)

 "I have no need to have lake water at the sink so we repurposed the pump to drain the ice box. The hose goes from bottom of ice box to foot pump at foot of sink. This pump used to pull lake water in an dispense in the sink."


 



Monday, 15 August 2016

Below decks Holding tank aroma

Update:
Replaced the large tank hoses with higher quality rubber hoses and the smell is diminished.  There is still a reminder of the holding tank i the areas near the tank itself. 

Also, the 33-2 holding tank has a design flaw (my opinion) that reduces the effective capacity of the tank.
  • her holding tank has its inlet in the upper port  corner.  On a starboard tack the effluent level in a partially fuilled tank will rise above the inlet, backfulling the head's hose.   If the joker valve leaks, the effluent fills the head with each tack, and eventually it will slop out of the head..   The holding tank's inlet pipe should have been on the tank's centreline. 

Original 2016 Post:

A discussion recently on the Stus list - the C&C email mailing list, piqued my curiosity about my piquant holding tank and related hardware - for background, I had replaced head and hoses, and had removed the tank for repair.  Despite numerous washings with bleach and other hopeful chemicals, it still stank.   perhaps a lost cause, but I had hoped (and continue to hope) that with proper hoses and ventilation, the smell will be contained to the tank.
My new and 'proper' hoses fail the sniff test, now, one season later.   Apparently there is a much better grade that is non permeable.   Also, my tiny original vent hose is probably partially blocked, and regardless, is hardly more than a means of ensuring the tank remains at atmospheric pressure.

he upshot of the discussion appears to be this:
Get the best hoses, non permeable.
Ensure that the waste cannot decompose anaerobically, meaning, ensure it gets plenty of oxygen.  The vent cannot do this.  Other do this either passively (larger and multiple vents) or actively (an aquarium type bubbler, or oxygen tablets.)  

My original question:

From: Dave Syer <syerdave@gmail.com>

  To: "dreuge@gmail.com"< dreuge@gmail.com>, C&c Stus List

  <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>

  Subject: Re: Stus-List Guidance required on Sewage hose type - LF38

  NOW Active holding tank vent

  Paul ? great blog, lotsa detail. You have piqued my curiosity with your active holding tank vent project. I have a rather ?piquant? poly holding tank in my 33-2. I changed the in and out (but not the vent) hoses and still I get a stench, particularly when the adjoining lockers are opened. The tank itself was removed and repaired, and while out it could not be de-stinked by any means I attempted, bleach, etc. Maybe there?s a way to deal with that, dunno.

  Am considering replacing the tank, but would rather resolve the cause. (or do both, and make provision for better/active ventilation in the new tank)

  In your post below, you seem pretty pleased with the result, any other insights? Anything you would do differently?

 

  Dave

 
> Dave,

> 
> From what all the experts say, using quality hose and having proper
> ventilation are main keys.   A real eye opener for me was finding
> a bug nest clogged air vent line, so at the very least check or
> replace your vent line.   To be honest, I cannot make any claims that
> adding the active ventilation fixed any problems as the system was be newly
> installed so there was no problem to fix.  But at such a small
> cost ~$25, it was a no brainer to install a system which constantly
>  pumps fresh air into the holding tank.   I thought briefly about
> getting a 12V air pump, but  if I were to make any changes it would be to plumb
> the galley sink drain to the head inlet so that when I leave the boat
> for an extended period,
> the head inlet could easily be flush with fresh water.   This
> eliminate salt water organisms from the inlet line which die off in
> the line and decay, without oxygen, anaerobically.

> Paul E.

> 1981 C&C 38 Landfall

 

> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/


On 8/14/2016 7:45 PM, Syerdave--- via CnC-List wrote:

> Thanks Paul, you've  got me thinking....
> I know the vent works because the guy who did the last pump out
> commented that he liked the location because he could hear the vent.  
> So, it is admitting some air, but day in day out, not a lot because it
> can't circulate.
> Any reason you can think of not to create a vented deck fill?  Big
> boats have big vents...  Same thing, I would  think.
> This may not solve the stench-permeated tank issue, but it would air
> the tank.

> Dave.

Message: 1

Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 09:33:12 -0400

From: Danny
HI Dave,

Not for nuthin' but, if you can hear the the vent, it is restricted and
won't be letting much air in unless there is a vacuum like the one
created by the pump.  Mine was the same way when I bought my boat so I
added a second and enlarged the first using 1-1/8 SS thru hull fittings
and hose.  was not that big a job.  also the waste hose could be a big
source of smells from the system.  I replaced all those as well.  no
oder at all on our boat!

The larger vents and thru hull also allow me to flush the system at
pumpout with fresh water running into the system through the vent
opening and get the tank nice and clean.

Danny


 Cc: "Andrew

> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2016 07:46
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Guidance required on Sewage hose type - LF38 NOWActive holding tank vent
>> I flush an oxygenater tablet into the holding tank every few weeks. That has completely eliminated the smell we once had from the holding tank.
 
 
This is one source.
 
>> Andy
 
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 09:42:23 -0400
From: "Marek


Dave,

not a specific solution to any of your problems, but if you are dealing with sanitation, Peggy Hall?s book (Get Rid of Boat Odors) is a very good read. It might be the best $25 you spend on your sanitation systems (A Kindle version is I think under $10).


Marek



Further to that discussion, a reference to Peggie Hall ("The Headmistress") on a powerboating website "ask the experts" page - covers hoses: 

And don't forget the vent lines. They should be as short, straight, and horizontal as possible; five feet is a good length. Hall recommends using a one- or even a 11⁄2-inch-diameter vent rather than the standard 5/8 inch, even though it means using a nonstandard fitting in the topsides. "I'm not a fan of vent filters, either. The filter impedes the free flow of air, which you need for odor control."
Once you've decided on a location, find a tank to fit the space. "Ronco Plastics
has over 400 shapes and sizes; they're the best source on the planet for water and holding tanks," says Hall. Ronco will install the fittings you want, where you want them. "I prefer two discharges, because it eliminates the Y-valve—one less thing to break. Ideally the inlet, outlets, and vent should be on top of the tank, which eliminates standing waste in the hoses," she explains. "However, that requires at least five inches of clearance above the tank, which isn't always possible." Top-mounted fittings let you disconnect the hoses without spillage even if the holding tank is full. "Have you ever known a macerator to fail when the tank wasn't full?"
Finally invest in top-quality hoses. Hall recommends just two brands: Trident Sani Shield #101 and #102, double-walled hoses with high odor-resistance; and SeaLand. "Double-clamp everything, with the clamp screws on opposite sides of the hose," she notes.